July 19, 2015
Human Rights Violations in Tibetan Exile and Buddhist communities:
The Shugden Ban, the Karmapa Controversy, and the targeting of Shugden Buddhists: why you should not Listen Only to Robert Thurman
To the U.S. State Dept.:
I am writing on behalf of all living beings, to ask you today to please allow the press to give voice to Shugden practitioners and our request for religious freedom. Concerning Tibetan/other Buddhism, I would also sincerely request that you could please get your information from better sources than Robert Thurman and people who Robert Thurman appointed. Indeed, there is more than one school of Buddhism, and you have been, and the world continues to be, lied to by both the Dalai Lama and his followers, most notably among the latter: Columbia University’s Robert Thurman. I happen to be quite certain that Robert Thurman and the Dalai Lama are lying on at least 2 big issues, having studied Buddhism in India and Nepal in 2001, and having practiced Buddhism in the Kagyu and Nyingma Schools from 2000-2009; in 2009 I began studying in the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) of Buddhism in the U.S.. These two issues are the ban on a Buddha and Dharma Protector named Dorje Shugden and the legitimate recognition of the Karmapa. I assure you that Thurman lies to you in order to preserve the Dalai Lama’s image/funding to you and the rest of the world. While I understand that you would like to make the Dalai Lama look good in order to help point out how bad China is, in reality, China is a good advertisement for how bad it is all by itself. For example, look at the way that China lied to Hong Kong regarding allowing them to be democratic, the little freedom the press has, etc.. Since we Americans live in a democracy, we need to uphold our democratic principles, including separation of religion and state, and freedom of speech and the press. I ask you please to ensure that we (Shugden Buddhists) are not censored by any organization that receives U.S. funding, including the International Campaign for Tibet, Tibet House, Robert Thurman and other Dalai Lama affiliated organizations. At the end of the document, I will propose a solution that should be a winning one on all sides.
As a Shugden Buddhist, I have noticed how hard it is to get the attention of the press; certain outlets are cut completely off, like Huffington Post Religion, which Thurman seems to rule. I understand that part of a CIA/State Dept. program is to keep the idea of a Free Tibet alive in the mind of the world, thus combating China’s communism. I am concerned that our government has mixed up religion and state, allowing the Dalai Lama’s human rights abuses against Buddhists, especially Tibetans in exile, to go unchecked.  To explain to you that I not only have evidence from articles and the internet, but also saw this Shugden ban in person in India and Nepal, I will recount my personal observations to you, so you might understand that I know the Dalai Lama and Robert Thurman to be completely dishonest in regard to this Shugden issue, and other issues as well. As far as I can tell, neither the Dalai Lama nor Robert Thurman are habituated to telling the truth in any conventional sense.
My personal observational evidence that the Dalai Lama/Thurman are lying:
I went to India back in 2001; I went with every intention of studying Buddhism, most likely, I assumed, under the Dalai Lama, as I had been charmed by his books and image. However, when I got to New Delhi, I met another teacher, Thaye Dorje, Shamar Rinpoche’s pick for the 17th Karmapa. I loved him immediately, and felt as though this were the Buddha of Compassion in the flesh. I took a significant vow with him, called the bodhisattva vow; then I traveled to Dharamsala, where I sought audience with the Dalai Lama, who was in retreat. I was interrogated, I felt, by a monk from the Dalai Lama’s school whom I met in a café for Tibetan lessons; he wanted to know what Dharma Protector practice I did. I didn’t do one, nor did I really know what a Dharma Protector even was; since I did not do one, the monk was then very concerned what Protector did the people I study with practice. Again, I didn’t really know, but this monk was not satisfied, saying that I might be doing a practice I thought was a Buddha but is really a witchcraft. We went round and round, until finally I mentioned that the only practice I did was Buddha Chenrezig’s, who is a Buddha anyone can do without initiation. He was a really nice monk, named Rabje, about 20 years old, who was very devoted to the Dalai Lama. Around that time, I did see the Dalai Lama’s pick for Karmapa, which turns out was also China’s. That “Karmapa” has the distinction of being the only Buddhist lama in India that I did not make prostrations to. I knew nothing about the Karmapa controversy; I knew there were two picks, but being only 6 months into Buddhism, I had no idea that is was a big deal. I assumed both candidates could be right. When I went to see the one that had just come from Tibet (the Dalai Lama’s pick), I did not get a good vibe at all, but rather felt that I was in a room with China and was not bowing to him.
Eventually I went to a Dalai Lama teaching back in Delhi, and left a little early, unimpressed. After meeting the Shamar Rinpoche (non-Dalai Lama) Karmapa (Thaye Dorje), I was expecting to be wowed. No such luck with the Dalai Lama. I traveled in March to Nepal, to a conference with the Karma Kagyu; it was right after this conference that I was first introduced, by a Kagyu friend who showed me an article in the newspaper, about the Dorje Shugden practice. The article in the paper, I realize now, was wildly inaccurate; the author acted as though Shugden were a demon that only a few dozen people practiced, led by one lama cult leader, that the Dalai Lama, in his “infinite compassion” (forgive me, he is no Buddha of Compassion) had banned. I asked my friend who does the Dalai Lama like? My friend responded that he didn’t know, but that we mustn’t discuss this here, (in a momo shop). At this point I understood what they must have been asking me about in Dharamsala, and why they were so worried that I might be unknowingly doing witchcraft; Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector, and the article says the Dalai Lama thinks it is a spirit, thus those doing the practice are doing black magic or “witchcraft.”
A few days later this same (western and Kagyu) man invited me to go and see some Gelugpa; he told me they might be doing “what we read in the newspaper,” and that I shouldn’t ask them anything about their practice. We went and had tea with a Geshe; honestly I do not know what monastery or what the Geshe’s name was, just that it was in Kathmandu. We went back one other time to see him. I had the idea that he was a little nervous we were there; apparently Shugden practitioners were worried about drawing attention from the Dalai Lama; the same I found to be true later, when I and some other western practitioners stayed in a hostel run by (allegedly) Shugden practitioners in Kalimpong. The other westerners and I were in Kalimpong to take 3 initiations with Karmapa Thaye Dorje; my roommate asked if it was ok that we stay with Shugdens; I said fine, no problem for me; she said she didn’t care what anyone practiced, she said we just had to be aware that the Dalai Lama’s followers might attempt to hurt us if we are associating with or giving business to Shugden people. I told her the Dalai Lama’s people already didn’t like me, so I wasn’t too worried about it, and at any rate, I thought these people could use the business. We stayed there the entire time we were attending Karmapa’s teachings; neither he nor Shamar Rinpoche ever mentioned anything about Shugdens or “witchcrafts” or anything else ever.
Years later, I began to attend New Kadampa Tradition teachings; I had no idea that they were Shugden at first, having never heard of them, but when I found out, I was very relieved, as I felt I should be safe from Dalai Lama people there. That may have been a naive assumption, since a lot of Dalai Lama’s followers seem to like to join our group to keep an eye on us.
Turning to Robert Thurman, I mention to you, that clearly there was Shugden discrimination back in 2001; the Tibetans were afraid to be seen with Shugdens; even we as westerners had to be aware that we might be in physical danger from the Dalai Lama’s followers if they found us supporting Shugden business or associating with Shugdens.
There is much more to the Shugden ban than Thurman admits in for example his Huffington Post article; he acts as though we are upset that we can’t go to the Dalai Lama’s teachings; trust me, I couldn’t care less about going to the Dalai Lama’s teachings, but what is upsetting is that in 2008, after throwing the Shugden monks out of their (state funded) monasteries, the Dalai Lama also cracked down in other ways; people were asked to carry yellow oath cards saying that they vowed not to do the Buddha Shugden practice; if they did not produce this card, then getting other documents, aid, etc., was difficult. Even before then, in 1996, the Dalai Lama’s TGIE wrote the medical community forcing them to either denounce their Shugden practice or resign from medicine. The Tibetan Constitution was amended around this time to bar Shugden Buddhists from joining the Judiciary. So, while the Dalai Lama said people COULD practice, of course they would be discriminated against, even by the government in exile, which was under his command.  This is of course religious discrimination just as it would be if we said, “Oh you CAN be Muslim, but if you don’t renounce Islam, then you can’t be a doctor or a judge.” Obviously, then, that is a huge, very non-democratic transgression; apparently in 1996, the Dalai Lama also asked people not to associate materially or physically with Shugden Buddhists; people have interpreted this, as of 2008 when the oath-cards went into effect, that they are not to sell products to Shugden Buddhists, hire them, wait on them in clinics, etc.. This is a huge problem in exile, and further divides Tibetans which seems like a god-send for China as it keeps Tibetans from unifying to talk about democracy in Tibet. Rather than blame us who are doing a practice, why not ask the Dalai Lama to remove the restrictions in writing, to put in writing that all discrimination against Shugden Buddhists is not okay, that we are welcome as normal part of society, that it is okay to hire us, talk to us, be friends with us, marry us, etc..
That Robert Thurman listens only to the Dalai Lama and misinforms the press and the world seems apparent; not only does he lie through his teeth about Dorje Shugden, who was seen as a Buddha by the Dalai Lama’s own teacher, Trijang Rinpoche, but also he completely fabricates everything concerning the Karmapa; basically, if anyone disagrees with Thurman’s guru, then we are wrong, should shut up, sit down, and take the Dalai Lama as our supreme spiritual dictator. Thurman’s attitude is sectarian and dogmatic, both of which are taught against by Buddha; in fact in an open letter to Robert Thurman, H.H. Shamar Rinpoche requests Thurman to be an honest scholar and indicates that the sectarianism need not be embraced by the U.S. government. In Buddhism we do not think we can force another person to think our way; in fact that is why in general we do not proselytize; forcing someone can give them a negative mind toward Buddha, which will hinder them later; it’s better to leave them alone and let them come if they want to. As far as sectarian, sectarianism is of course if someone thinks “it’s my way or the highway for religion;” that is exactly how the Dalai lama, Thurman, and other DL followers often see it; we must do religion however the Dalai Lama wants, or be shut down. Oddly, and following Orwell, Thurman calls NKT Buddhists sectarian for wanting to maintain our school, within our own buildings, as passed from Buddha Shakyamuni to Manjushri to Je Tsongkhapa and so on to Trijang Rinpoche to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. If we won’t let the Dalai Lama be in charge of us, then of course we are sectarian, according to sycophantic Thurman logic.
Because of the intense difficulties that the Tibetan Community in Exile goes through and to stand up for their right to practice Shugden without discrimination, a lot of us, from a group called the International Shugden Community (ISC), protest on-line; we have had some tweet storms, which is a common practice; Robert Thurman has demonized us for our on-line and in-person protests; during the first twitter storms I participated in last year in the fall, Robert Thurman put me and other Shugden practitioners on a list of “Anti-HHDL spam accounts.” He asked followers to block and report us, so that Twitter would close down our accounts. Apparently he also requested Anonymous to hack us, but apparently they had something else to do, and told him they weren’t his “personal army.” One of my friends told me people were opening extra accounts in case we got hacked during a tweetstorm, but I didn’t bother, thinking I will be filing a complaint at that point, rather than tweeting. Later, Robert Thurman (for the California Dalai Lama birthday celebrations) asked people to report “spamming” of the “#withCompassion” hashtag; the Dalai Lama had, in his normal completely hypocritical way, asked people to send a picture of them engaged in an act of kindness with the hashtag “#withcompassion,” as though he ever acts in a compassionate way, rather than smiling for the western press and oppressing Buddhists as soon as no one is looking. Apparently, anyone who wants to show themselves protesting and saying “stop lying Dalai Lama,” as their act of compassion on twitter, would be considered by Thurman as a “spam” account; first it IS an act of compassion to tell someone to stop lying because this is better for their otherwise heinous karma, and secondly, as a Democrat, I have spontaneously crashed GOP tweetstorms, which apparently was also done by a lot of other Democrats; for example, “ImnotvotingforHillarybecause,” obviously got crashed because the liberal crash tweets outnumbered the GOP tweets; by crashed I just mean GOP were intending to bad mouth Mrs. Clinton, but a lot of liberals tweeted sarcastically “because we like the GOP to send our kids to war,” or “because we are right-wing morons who like to oppress others” etc.. So I submit that crashing a hashtag is simply normal freedom of speech; what to me is NOT simple freedom of speech, is to put people on a list asking other people to block and report our accounts as Thurman did us; first that interferes, via a loophole on Twitter, with our religious freedom; it allows anti-Shugdens to target us, and though we have not tweeted at them, they block and report us; this caused at least journalist Indy Hack’s account to be suspended for awhile. Furthermore, putting us on a list saying we are “anti-HHDL” is like telling the playground bullies where to find people to throw rocks at; we don’t really need them directed to us like that; putting people on lists who are a certain faith is generally frowned upon.
In addition to Thurman’s campaign against us, there is a whole issue with his (and a few others) pretending that our accounts are all “spam” rather than “tweet storming.” It seems Thurman wishes to end our freedom of speech; he has the help of some bogus group called Inform, in England. Apparently one of their issues with us, is that some people have more than one twitter account; again I am sure that is a normal practice for tweetstorms but also one reason we have people that opened the extra accounts is because our original accounts were being targeted by Thurman. Obviously if one account gets blocked in a tweetstorm, a person can switch to another. As far as our hashtag trending, it shows up on the trending software like in the top 10 world-wide on several past tweet storms; however, I only saw “#DalaiLamaStopLying” on my computer screen once under trending; usually we seem to trend high but tweets keep going missing off Twitter, during protests, and then we don’t show us as trending to people actually watching the trends on Twitter. I am not really okay with that, since I imagine that Thurman, along with Tibet House and with the backing of the U.S. government funding and blessings, can convince someone in Twitter to censor us in the “interests of the Dalai Lama’s security,” or some nonsense.
One method Robert Thurman uses to justify censorship of Shugden practitioners, is he indicates we are funded by China, though if that were the case, then I expect someone would have gotten back to me about attending farther away protests with ISC funding— as it is no one responds. You’d think if they were funded by China that the protests would be better advertised within the NKT and ISC on-line communities; they are not, and a lot of people I know to be really strong followers of Geshe Kelsang/Dorje Shugden do not show up; last year, in my case, I did not attend the California protests because I was not informed that protests were beginning. I am well-known to like Shugden and requested repeatedly a Shugden empowerment be given in my city; so there shouldn’t be doubt I am with Shugden; what the doubt is, is how can Thurman pretend we are funded by China when I don’t have any funding coming from the ISC, or certainly not anyone from China. It doesn’t seem logical to me, nor do I think Geshe Kelsang would want to take money from China, as that would confuse the issue; (Geshe Kelsang fled the Chinese with nothing but one or two Buddhist texts with them. He lives in England, which is of course a democracy.)
On the note that some lying is going on and that not everyone is informed about protests etc., please consider that The International Shugden Community and The NKT are not the same thing, though there are a lot of NKT members in the ISC, as we are the largest Shugden group (or Buddhist group actually) in the west. In the New Kadampa Tradition, and I will not go into a lot of details, I have been approached by supposedly NKT practitioners privately, such as in a car or at my house, who tried to convert me to the Dalai Lama’s dharma, and say they thought that Dorje Shugden is negative. I have noticed quite a lot of these people in California; not surprising really, given that some of the Tibetan Shugden lamas mention on the Internet that they have people watching them if they try to stay in a Shugden monastery, that some people come just to see what is going on etc.. The Dalai Lama’s followers are under the impression that we are doing such a bad practice, and are so evil to not do what their lama says, that it is okay to do anything to stop us. Misusing a teaching from the bodhisattva vows, where we can technically participate in any action, even kill, if it is bodhisattva activity, these people do not see it is as a problem to lie to us. After all the Dalai Lama said it would be okay for 1 or 10 people to die if it meant the cause of Tibet and a particularly important person’s life (implying his own) were saved; right after he said this, Tibetans in Exile produced a list with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, the leader of the NKT (where I experienced these lying Dalai Lama people) as the number one person on this list. If it is okay, in Dalai Lama Pseudo-Buddhist land, to break the no killing vow, then let’s just guess the no lying precept is no problem either. (I don’t advise trying either yourselves, as it is completely against Buddhist teachings; the Dalai Lama is getting horrible karma).
On that same note, I suspect quite a lot of the NKT Survivors group that is the main group to Inform “Inform” and slander us, are most likely a bogus group made from Dalai Lama people who joined the NKT, planning to make the NKT look bad, trying to find out as much info as possible, left, and started trying to act like we were a cult. This group appears pretty small, and two of its main members seem very well trusted by the Dalai Lama, which would be strange coming from the Shugden group. Furthermore, Tsering Tashi that was in charge of one of the Tibetan Shugden groups, left, & turncoated; he now pretends we get money from China, and is completely trusted by the Dalai Lama. He has absolutely no proof we get money from China, but says China gives it to Lama Gangchen; according to Tsering, Lama Gangchen and Geshe Kelsang meet with Chinese officials in Europe, and then the money comes to the ISC. I believe he left the Shugden Tibetan group before the ISC began. Show me some proof, if he (from your Tibet House) is going to claim we, a group with a lot of American citizens, receives money from communist China. On the same note of infiltrators from the Dalai camp coming to check out a group, I knew some of the Kagyus on both sides of school to be convinced we had spies from the other side. I don’t think they were right about anyone from Shamar Rinpoche’s side bothering to see what they are doing; we know what the Dalai Lama people are doing: making a mess of Buddhism.
It does seem normal for people to come from the Dalai Lama side of things to check up on people, and in the case of the NKT, they seem hell-bent on destroying us from within. I sincerely hope Thurman isn’t taking U.S. funds to help sponsor these infiltrators’ endeavors, though it would seem unlikely that they didn’t have help in some cases supporting themselves from some outside source. Furthermore, rather than being funded by China, or funded well at all, the ISC seems to have a couple of these already-with-the-Dalai-Lama-types who are checking us out and stayed on and suddenly became representatives of the ISC: Len Foley and his wife Rebecca Gauthier (Foley). If they are with Shugden then I am an iguana. As I said, I was approached by people trying to get me to switch to the Dalai Lama; sometimes people like that teach (such as Carol McGuire from the NKT survivors); Rebecca is a resident teacher, but that doesn’t mean she is sincere; she and Len are in the same network of people as the several ones that tried to convert me, that tried to get us to change curriculum to something more Dalai Lama-esque, etc.. Furthermore, both this year and last year, Rebecca and Len talked “for Shugdens” to the press, only to miss the main issues of apartheid (both years) in the Tibetan community, and to fail to refer to Shugden as a Buddha but rather as a deity (in Buddhism some Deities are Buddhas and some are worldly; the Dalai Lama calls Shugden a deity but says he is worldly). Furthermore, the Huffington Post, which hates everything Shugden in several articles, mentions that the one to talk to, while trashing Shugdens in every other way, is Rebeca Gautier from the ISC; now why, in a group that always promotes the Dalai Lama, would they point the press to Rebecca? There are other ISC spokespeople, such as Gen Rabten, who are more articulate and who are believably Shugden. Rebecca and Len’s speech to the press seems designed to aid the Dalai Lama in every way possible; to make easy strawman arguments for Thurman to counter. Besides that, I can tell that Len and Rebecca are insincere when it comes to Shugden; I feel you must understand that it is normal to look for sincerity in spiritual friends/teachers and that you must also know that when someone applies for a job, the boss looks for sincerity. They don’t cut it.
Thurman’s main argument against us, and the International Campaign for Tibet’s as well, seems to be that we were “lied to” and “tricked” by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc.. According to Robert Thurman, not only is Geshe Kelsang wrong, but also my first lamas, Shamar Rinpoche and his Karmapa Thaye Dorje are wrong, because the Dalai Lama, who has never had jurisdiction in these matters, chose a different Karmapa. I do not know what lies Thurman and the whole Dalai Lama crew fed you, but the Kagyus are in charge of their school, and Shamar Rinpoche, as head regent, was in charge of finding the Karmapa. The Dalai Lama seems to have appeased China by picking their communist educated candidate, who they now expect to rule instead of the Dalai Lama after the latter passes away. When Thurman agrees with horrible claims against Shamar Rinpoche, I simply feel sad for Thurman; Shamar Rinpoche (may he take swift rebirth) was a very down to earth and kind lama. His Karmapa is simply bodhichitta in motion; whereas the Dalai Lama camp seems like a bunch of frauds. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, the NKT’s founder, I find to be equal to Shamar Rinpoche and Karmapa in kindness, perfection of teaching, and down to earthiness. From the three of them, I am always reminded to investigate phenomenon for myself; with the Dalai Lama’s school, and his fake Karmapa, and his sycophant Thurman, the underlying message is generally “sit down, shut up, and do whatever the Dalai Lama says or you will go to hell.”
It would have been difficult to deal with all of this interference from the Dalai Lama, the spying, the attempt at overthrowing us from within, but what makes it worse is that the U.S. government continues to promote the Dalai Lama as the perfect Peace- Prize- tolerant- humble- monk; anyone who knows much about Buddhism but doesn’t happen to be a Dalai Lama student, probably has some idea how false that whole concept is. I am asking the U.S. government, please only fund things which do not malign religious groups (such as Shugden practitioners) and uphold human rights for all.
Our government’s listening to other people than just the Dalai Lama’s closest sycophants would be a really helpful idea; basically Columbia University and the Huffington Post are off-limits outlets for Shugden Buddhists because of Thurman’s influence. Since the CIA started Tibet House, and since Thurman is/was President of Tibet House US, then I think it might be helpful if you would kindly intervene on behalf of human rights and democracy, and tell him that he cannot continue to malign other Buddhists, that the ICT etc., can expect no further funding if the Dalai Lama cannot be convinced to end the Shugden ban in writing. Please do better investigation; people who are loyal to the Dalai Lama as spiritual leader are his own students; just because I think the Dalai Lama is a terrible “teacher” of Buddhism doesn’t mean I want his country taken by China. There are a few million Shugden Buddhists worldwide, so the best idea for democracy and human rights is to ask the Dalai Lama to end the Shugden apartheid in writing; it would also be a good PR move, because we will help all living beings with peaceful protests until the Dalai Lama ends the Shugden ban. It would actually be the best PR move possible to convince the Dalai Lama to end the Shugden ban. These would be the benefits of his completely ending all discrimination in writing, saying people can be friends with, do commerce with, talk to their Shugden relatives, marry with Shugdens etc.:
- The Tibetan people would be unified rather than schismed against 1/3 of the Tibetan population
- The Protests from the International Shugden Community would cease
- People could be friends with each other— which means when someone asks us about the Dalai Lama we’d be more likely to say something positive or at least neutral, rather than launching into,” well let me tell you what a liar I think the Dalai Lama is” speech.
- Tibetan people in Tibet and in exile could focus more on what type of government they can arrange, whether in exile or at home as a more unified people.
- It would set the right example of honoring the human rights/freedom of religion of everyone, not just the most powerful.
In addition, it might be wise for the U.S. at least, to recognize both Karmapas, rather than just the illegitimate Dalai Lama/Chinese one; this would be good just for religious rights, which we are supposed to uphold; in addition, if the Chinese are ever maneuvering unhelpfully with their (Dalai Lama’s) pretend Karmapa, then perhaps there could be some way to convince the Tibetans not to bother following this Chinese-educated potential ruler.
In closing I do not have space here to refute each and every one of Thurman’s lies; he is very patronizing toward people whom he disagrees with, which is everyone except the Dalai Lama, apparently. He may tell you that the Dalai Lama’s teacher renounced the Shugden practice, because that is a lie I’ve heard from that Dalai camp recently, he may say I don’t know the word “ban” in Tibetan; he’s right I don’t, but I do know a big liar when I see one, and you can call the ban a “restriction,” “a ban” “segregation” or “apartheid,” if you like. Basically when he’s explaining anything about Buddhism to you, or telling you whom to trust, just be pretty certain to double check or triple check; if Thurman tells you it is raining, make sure to look outside. He, “the wise scholar” knows I am working for China and worshipping a spirit, though I didn’t get the memo and a lot of lamas disagree; furthermore, when I wrote the 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje (the real, non-Dalai Lama one) and asked if it was okay if I come to teachings once in awhile at his Centers even though I do the Shugden practice, his response was it is fine from the Kagyu side. I imagine if it were a spirit, I would be informed by one of these many lamas I trust; it seems the ones I trust are generally not really in agreement with the Dalai Lama’s pseudo-Buddhism.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. You may leave a message on my phone/email if I do not answer.
Enclosures: Tweets from Thurman targeting my Twitter account; Tweets from other anti-Shugdens targeting my twitter; tweets from Thurman/ others targeting Shugdens
Copy: to CIA
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3zosv39mDM&spfreload=10 (about 8 minutes in the English begins)